Permaculture and Climate Resilience: An Interview with Andrew Millison

Like a lot of people, when I first heard of permaculture, I had no idea what it was, but I knew that it had something to do with growing your own food. However, once I discovered what amazing things can be done with permaculture, I was an immediate fan. Permaculture is a system, an integrated approach to farming/agriculture and land management design. The goal of permaculture design is to mimic patterns found in nearby natural ecosystems in order to reduce waste, stop pollution, increase sustainability, protect wildlife, and enhance biodiversity and resilience of the land. So basically, it's awesome. While a lot of gardeners and sustainable homeowners are already using some permaculture concepts without even knowing it, exploring the entire system can be very beneficial; for you, your wallet, the earth, and future generations. I sat down with Andrew Millison, a professor of Horticulture at Oregon State University and an extremely popular YouTuber on his personal permaculture channel to talk about permaculture and its benefits.

Hi Andrew, it is really awesome to be meeting with you! I started hearing your name attached to permaculture way back in 2008, when I worked at Prescott College, and I’m a big fan of your channel on Youtube.

Thank you, I appreciate it.

Many of our readers may not know what Permaculture is. What would you say is a good definition?

My elevator definition is “sustainable land design system”. That’s an oversimplification, but that encapsulates it to some degree. Basically, a design system that provides for all the needs of a human settlement that can endure in a location.

What impact does permaculture design have on our environment?

Ecologically, it’s got beneficial impacts to biodiversity, carbon sequestration, water retention, agricultural productivity without using poison, getting trees establish, helping to mitigate climate change. On a mass scale, permaculture has completely holistic positive effects on every aspect of the environment.

So let’s start out with some history. When did you first become interested in Permaculture, and why?

I went to Prescott College in 1995, that’s when I first heard of permaculture. The first time I was really introduced to the concept of regenerative design at all was when I was traveling through Taos, New Mexico and saw the Earth Ships, these entire houses that were these completely self-sustaining systems. I was like, “Oh my god, all I need to do is learn how to build one of those, and then that’s just my bunker and I can grow all of my food in there!” And of course, it processes your water and you don’t have to use any energy for heating. And I was looking for a way to survive in the world, and naively, at that time, the Earth ships sounded like the thing--a way to survive in the world. When I went to Prescott College, I took my first permaculture class in 1996, and that was it. I just felt like Whoa—this is my life. I then took advanced permaculture as well and other courses that supported that whole body of knowledge.

That’s awesome. I actually remember when I was in the Prescott College library, and Mollison’s original permaculture book (Permaculture: A Designer's Manual) was there, but so ripped up, and I was like, this is a library book and they aren’t even replacing it! You could tell that it had just been read and reread hundreds of times, and I can’t even imagine how many Prescott College camping trips that thing has been on.

My personal book is falling apart too, I’ve had that thing since 1996.

It seems that getting farmers on both large and small-scale farms to adopt permaculture would really help the climate and the farmers, too. What is an example of a farm permaculture project that you did that would show the effectiveness of permaculture applications in that type of setting?

So, permaculture is very applicable in it’s true sense in a small-scale in yards and on homestead type of scale. When you get up to the industrial farming scale, you tend to go out of permaculture and you get more into Keyline design. A lot of the permaculture concepts are based on this other design system called Keyline design that came out of Australia, which is more suited for broad-scale production. And when you think of permaculture and you think of the hyper biodiversity in permaculture solutions, it’s not necessarily conducive to industrial scale management, like where you can say “go down this row and pick this plant”. You can still be under the umbrella of permaculture in a way, but you are using Keyline design. As an example, one of the most applicable ways that permaculture is being used on larger farms right now is water development.

Like pond systems?

From www.onecommunityglobal.org

Yeah, like pond systems, water rehydration swales, etc. I actually just saw a fascinating project that I just posted a video about happening in Senegal. There are farmers there that are farming around 10 hectares or so (around 25 acres), but they are just farming direct, seeded crops during the rainy season. So you have about 3 months of rain there and then you have 9 dry months. So you get a tremendous amount of rain in a short amount of time (like the monsoons), and then you have nothing. People are farming millet or peanuts, maize or sorghum—and then dry season comes, and they have no income or production. They either have to leave and go to the cities or people eat less and get hungry, and it’s so intense. This organization called Trees for the Future that I visited there is basically building permaculture food forests. They are going in and training farmers, taking one portion of their land (around ¼ to 1 acre) and creating these intensive multi-species gardens. They’ve got citrus trees, mangoes, bananas, nitrogen-fixing trees, some vegetables, and things that yield in the other times of the year when there’s nothing else growing. So, the changes in nutrition and available food for the families, it is such a dramatic change, so check out the video. Permaculture has a very dramatic effect on people’s basic well-being at the subsistence level. I’ve seen this in India, Africa, and I’ve seen it in other places as well.

What would you say to the average American that looks at permaculture and says, “What’s in it for me?”

For one thing, a good life. A yard filled with food, and plants, and birds, and creatures, and fresh eggs, and fresh salad greens, and apples off the tree. I feel like there’s a higher quality of life when you just surround yourself with food and nature. Now, I’m someone who enjoys gardening and being outdoors, and that’s not everyone’s thing. If you are poor or just have a tight budget, especially with inflation and the rising costs of food, then you can really offset some of your costs. I have honeybees, and I produce a lot of honey, which is very expensive—and I’m a glutton for honey. I would say of the things in my yard that has a substantial economic impact, I’d definitely say the honey, because we eat so much of it. That being said, it’s not cheap to get bees going and to have all of the equipment and everything like that.

But potatoes, greens, fruits—that’s another thing. They are kind of expensive now.

Here in Oregon you can totally grow a rad crop of potatoes, super easily. You won’t save money with all of the things you grow, but with a lot you will, and then there’s that quality of life benefit as well. If you have complete faith in the system that there will never be food disruptions, then [growing your own food] may not matter to you. But if you have food all around you on your property, you have a basic sense of security. I think that in the American world, it’s more of a lifestyle choice where you can take it or leave it—but in other parts of the world, that's how you put food on the table.

I agree. And you know, when the pandemic started, how long were we with empty shelves? There was a long time where you just couldn’t get everything.

Yeah, and global supply chains are fucked. When you look at a consumer product and you actually map out all of the elements of that product and where they actually came from, the web of globalization that brings the amazon package to your door is very vast, and I don’t think it’s to be taken for granted.

Totally. Part of what we’re gonna be focusing in DILATE is having a series of articles about alternatives to Amazon or other online outlets that are local. Amazon’s not even that cheap anymore—a lot of times you are paying more than if you purchased it elsewhere. People are not realizing that even if you aren't growing your own food, you are more secure if you get your food from the farm down the road. It will be a much more secure situation then if you rely on Albertson’s or Kroger.

Yeah, I agree. Definitely.

Urban farmers, backyard farmers, gardeners, and even people who simply have a grass lawn could contribute to climate change reversal while beautifying their surroundings (and possibly growing their own food), but homeowners are often busy and want simple, quick solutions. What are some simple, quick solutions that homeowners could do to make an impact without having to do a full permaculture project?

Composting is an easy one—instead of throwing that food scrap in the trash, you can even send it to the city’s compost, or have a compost pile in your yard. Also planting trees. Mulch your trees with wood chips. Plant a native tree in your yard. Increase the tree cover and cooling your home and the environment with some big tree that will provide habitat and possibly food for you. Also, biking and not driving, recycling etc. For now, you can be happy with doing small things, but it’s important to know that in yours or your children’s lifetimes, shit is going to get real. We’re living on borrowed time, and all of the ships have sailed at this point in a lot of ways, so I think we need to need to look at the major impacts that are going to affect where we are. There is still great hope, as I’ve been showing with my video work. There are places all around the world that are doing massive water restoration, tree planting, ecosystem, and stabilization projects. It is completely possible if humanity suddenly evolved (although it looks like we’re devolving right now), we could completely, as my friend Natalie says—we could unfuck this. We could stabilize the climate, get carbon in the soils, plant trees, stabilize watersheds, everything. Permaculture provides the roadmap for doing that. There’s not a lack of information. There’s not a lack of knowing what we need to do—the lack is in the human condition.

Since we are sitting at your house in Oregon, let’s talk rain. What are some easy ways to harvest rainwater, and what do you think are the benefits?

The very easiest way to harvest rainwater is to have healthy soil with high organic matter in it that soaks up rainwater. First, there is collecting rainwater in the landscape, second is creating a sponge out of the landscape, and then there is active rainwater harvesting through your gutters and into tanks or containers. The easiest way is to just get a shovel and just dig a basin, you know—just create a low spot so the water has a place to settle instead of running off the landscape. Shaping the land into a sponge, or even just bringing in a bunch of wood chips would be perfect. When was the last time you saw water run off of a well-mulched landscape? You can then create this sponge which will slow-release water throughout the summer.

Now I’m going to flip this around a bit. What are some permaculture design options to lower consumption and/or create a more sustainable backyard or farm in say, Phoenix, Arizona or somewhere else in the desert?

Creative Commons License CC-BY-NC-ND 4.0, from https://gardenwarriorsgoodseeds.com.

In the dry lands, initially, it’s about creating a protective microclimate. When I moved to Oregon from Arizona, I said that in Oregon, if you’re starting at zero, in Arizona, you’re starting at -40. And you have to do an enormous amount of work developing a microclimate just to get to that zero level in Oregon. A lot of that is protection from the elements. You have to do a lot of organic matter building. You need to create sheltered pockets that end up having more relative humidity, and in those sheltered areas, you can have a climate where you can grow vegetables. Also, choosing drought-adapted varieties of plants—using places like Native Seed Search that are distributing traditional Native American seeds that are well-adapted to the area. Also, growing all kinds of trees and plants from a similar climate zone in a different part of the planet. You would ask, “Where are the deserts similar to phoenix Arizona in the world? What sorts of plants do people grow there?”

You have two options for your online permaculture Design Certificate at Oregon State University, the Permaculture Design Certificate (PDC) and the PDC Pro. Can you tell us a bit more about your program and who would benefit from enrolling?

We started the online program in 2011, and we have been developing, revisiting, revising, editing, and getting feedback for 12 years. With the Permaculture Design Certificate, we found that there was this really wide range of students, like the home gardener that was older and didn’t have a lot of computer experience or complete beginners—then, on the other side of the spectrum, we had architects and engineers, and wildlife biologists—people that were far advanced in their understanding of many of the complementary systems to permaculture. So we decided to take the class, double the time, and add in more content and support, as well as Q & A and zoom meetings. That is the PDC Pro course. We thought that most people would still take the shorter certificate, but what we’ve found is that most students prefer the PDC Pro program. Those are great classes, and we also have an online food forest class, Advanced design tools for climate resilience, Permaculture water management, and others. It’s really working, and a lot of people go through our program.

What is, based on your experience, the biggest gift that permaculture can give us?

It gives you a sense of purpose and well-being. People that do permaculture are generally happier, because you’re making the world make sense around you. You’re like, oh, my laundry water goes to water my fruit tree! The systems, everything is cycling, the world makes sense! I’m eating good food, I’m spreading wood chips all afternoon, I was outside, I got exercise, I was in the sun (or the rain), I got to see two bald eagles fly overhead…

What are things that you see that we can do to bring people together as we move into this new reality—whether people are right or left wing, no matter who you are. How can we move forward in a positive way?

I feel like there are surprises in store, good and bad. I’m trying to be part of the good surprises. I know what I need to do is keep one foot in front of the other. Humans plan and God laughs, right? I don’t know what’s going to happen. I know that I have my own role to play. I think we all need to find out what that role is. Ask, who am I? What is my highest potential to contribute goodness to the world? What does that look like for you? Maybe it’s breakdancing. And you’re the sickest breakdancer, and you lift people’s hearts with that. That’s enough. Live that highest potential. Live a good life.

Andrew Millison is a permaculture teacher and practitioner, media maker, and gardener. He brings more than 25 years of experience and a creative approach to regenerative design to his work. In addition, Andrew travels the globe filming documentaries about large-scale permaculture initiatives in the US, Mexico, Egypt, India, and Cuba. You can find his videos on his Youtube channel, and listen to his podcast, Earth Repair Radio . You can also follow him on Twitter and Instagram.